Crestline Soaring Society

Mike,
I think you have it straight.
BobK can be recalled or not.
If recalled, he can be re-elected or not.
Jonathan

What the Hell did Bob do to justify a re-call anyhow????
so far nobody has really given me an answer on that????and I've ask around quite a bit too?

Old and Bold!

I've said it before,

Bob has been a constant supporter of CSS. The last R3 RD I saw at our club aside from him was John (Greywald?) giving Owen and Len plaques.

The other guy on the ballot seems okay, this political disaster notwithstanding, but he hasn't been at CSS since Clinton was president.

Judging by actions, Bob has been a big supporter of CSS and I think we should return that support.

I have not received a ballot. Will it come in the mail or email, or do I go somewhere on line to vote?
Megret

Yep ,got mine yesterday as well.
Of coarse the only thing that has changed since the last time I voted for Bob,is that the stuff he wanted to do turned into a bunch of screaming children ending in this waste of time.
Bob your the Man
Finish your term and if you have it in you for another term ,you will have my vote again
To the Recall ettes
Hope all this BS is worth how long I can hold a grudge.

While Bill seems plenty qualified, he didn't stand up and cry foul when pilots were being persecuted.
For all I know, maybe those pilots deserved to lose privileges. But this is America. Innocent until proven guilty. Bob got in because the previous office holder didn't at least try to get them justice.

So far as site preservation goes, I believe Bob could function well in this area too. He seems like a hard worker to me.

Bob's the one who is promising to at least try to fix some things at USHPA that I believe need to be addressed.

I don't hear Bill talking about it.

Bob has demonstrated a willingness to travel all over Region 3, visiting sites and taking an interest. I didn't see Bill taking Dennis to the beach, on his own dime, the way Bob did. If Bob did that, for a "nobody", just think what else he'll do.

This case is a mirror of the current situation in Washington. If we can get transparency in USHPA, that would show we can get it elsewhere.

So if you want to preserve the status quo, vote for Bill.

But if you think it's time we got some new energy in free flight politics, you know how to get it.

The folks wanting this recall have behaved immaturely.
$10K of our hard earned dues money, just to get a chance to vote Bob out ONLY A FEW MONTHS EARLY. $10K would have gone a long way towards something useful. Instead these crybabies had to waste it, when they could have waited a few months and voted him out then. Disgraceful.

If you don't care who gets elected, vote for Bob just to punish these pantywaists.

Steve Corbin

Hang Gliding is inherently fun

In what way is BobK "less prepared?" Less prepared than who?
XC routes preservation? What is that?
BobK is a poor communicator? YGBSM...BobK is passionate about issues and articulate. If anything, he communicates too much ;-)

Marcus, if you are going to take the time to call for BobK's removal from office, at least list some compelling reasons to do so.

I've had several voting members ask me for advice on this recall election. OK here's my advice...

We are all very fortunate to have a democratic way to drive our desires toward the USHPA. The meaning of democracy is that we each can express our view through one vote per person. If I were to state which way I am voting to some extent it could sway votes other than my own. I am entitled to one vote and I am voting. Each of you is also entitled to one vote. To prevent any possibility of swaying others, I must decline stating which way I am voting.

There exists a stark polarization in the current recall election. This means that there could be a large contingent of dissatisfied USHPA members regardless of how the election tallies. So, however you choose to vote, after the election is over, if you are on the losing side, please respect the process and let's work together toward common ground. If you are on the winning side it is wise to reach out with compassion to your fellow fliers that did not get their representative elected. Let's spend as much effort to work to close our divisions so we may return to being a unified political force.

Most of my time as been at Torrey and there is a very strong VOTE of NO Confidence for BobK going on.
Right or wrong, the facts remain that the perception is too many bridges have been burned, too many hard feelings and too much damage has occured for the current RD leadership to be effective.
Bill H is new blood, tons of experience and most of all, POSITIVE RELATIONSHIPS and an ability to communicate and get along with people. Bill H has none of the negative baggage and therefore has the ability to pull people together and we can start anew, clean slate and build a consensus now.
Current RD can have a new day another time but for now WE need to appease the recallers and start over and anybody can run another time and hopefully fences will be mended and we can move finally in the same direction. A cooling off period will be very helpful and refreshing new ideas, efforts and new words and discussions for a change. We can go with Bill H now and THEN next year is a whole new year? A lot to be gained and nothing to lose. Bill now, and whoever at that point, later. Pretty simple after too long and too much negative stuff.

San diego in general has always been kind of isolated from the rest of So Cal for some reason. I remember when there was a alot of people who were very affended if you yelled whack at them. They actualy tried to get ushga to ban it. This is just more of the same. In reality, Torrey is just a pittley little ridge soaring site thats been a pain in the arse for 30+ years. There's alway a conflict with the manager and the cops have been involved many times before. The best thing to do is ignore the place and go fly. They won't be able to stand people having fun without them. This really has nothing to do with Bob, it's just people who want control. We should kick SD out to region 4, the Colorado boys will know how to deal with them. John Kerry

http://www.ushpa.aero/documents/sop/ushpa_sop_book.pdf

6.04 Regional Responsibilities

If the Region has multiple Directors, they must communicate and cooperate such that all responsibilities are orchestrated so that the pilots in the Region get consistent and accurate directions and help. If a situation arises where the Directors' opinions conflict and they are unable to reach an acceptable compromise, they should seek binding counsel from either the Executive Committee or from another mutually respected Director.

A. Insure that each pilot in the Region has acceptable access to the Rating system through the appointment/re-appointment and training of responsible individuals as Examiners and Observers in his/her region.

B. Ensure that non-active Examiners and Observers do not get re-appointed without assurance that they will fulfill their rating responsibilities.

C. Provide necessary training for Examiners.

D. Appoint only qualified Examiners.

E. Provide a central information format for the Examiners and Observers to insure consistency in the managing the rating process.

F. Ensure, where appropriate, that the rating revocation process is handled fairly, and expeditiously and is not allowed to falter because of the inherent difficulties in this type of action.

G. When the Mentor Coordinator requires, support the Mentor Program by appointing qualified Mentors.

H. Ensure that someone in the Region arranges, coordinates and manages a Regional Competition for the purpose of selecting pilots for the National Championships.

I. Approve ICP, Tandem and Towing Clinics.

J. Approve Safe Pilot Awards, Master Rating Applications.

K. Inform the Regional membership of the proceedings of the last Board meeting.

L. Disseminate information on how the USHPA system works - keep the pilots informed.

M. Encourage/promote new flying sites and the safe management of existing sites through the appropriate use of the rating system, insurance and site regulations.

N. Encourage/promote safety and safe flying practices.

O. Conduct him/herself in an appropriate manner as an example for other pilots to follow.

P. Mediate conflicts that occur in the Region.

Q. Support the formation of Clubs to manage flying activities in a local area and encourage those clubs to achieve USHPA Chapter status.

R. Be a Regional spokesman for the USHPA both to the pilots in the Region and any civilian organization, i.e., newspaper, government agencies, landowners, etc.

S. Provide Headquarters and HANG GLIDING AND PARAGLIDING magazine with updated information on Regional trends/activities, special events, survey results, site development and maintenance efforts, etc. which serve to assist in monitoring National trends/concerns.

Is there really any other conflicts in the region ?
And this is the ONLY conflict or did I miss something ?

"P. Mediate conflicts that occur in the Region."
Well I guess this one is out, when the house school controls the publicly owned flight park.

Perhaps a good resolution would be the local club(s) control the hang /para aspects of the flight park, and all instructors have a equal voice ? Not just the house school.IMO
Some say its getting better, BUT then this little recall thing popped up, so what was the point.

And how did the other RDs help or hinder this conflict ?

USHPA really fired a shot across Bob's bow when they got their lawyer to pen a letter saying he couldn't represent us per Point R.

What they thought was, they were just firing the shot across Bob's bow, but they didn't realize how it affected those who voted for him.

Kent Erickson wrote: "Most of my time has been at Torrey..."

Yes, I see you've been a member of this forum for almost 2 weeks now. Welcome.

Kent wrote: "... and there is a very strong VOTE of NO Confidence for BobK going on."

There's a group of "Jebb loyalists" at Torrey who were furious that I beat him in 2008. They started asking about a recall the very next day. If you hang with that crowd you'll think I'm the devil. My phone number is well publicized Kent. Yet for all your passion, I haven't heard from you. It's easy to hate people that you don't really know.

Kent wrote: "too many bridges have been burned, too many hard feelings"

That's on them Kent. My door is always open to the other Directors on any topic. I've stepped forward to ask for fairness. I've asked for it loudly and consistently. Anyone who considers that a "burned bridge" doesn't deserve to be a Director in the first place. Furthermore, any Directors who won't work with other Directors because they can only see "burned bridges" don't deserve to be Directors either. That's childish behavior, and it should be stamped out and not coddled.

Kent wrote: "Bill H is new blood"

Sorry, you're wrong there. Bill's been on the SDHGPA Board for a long time. He did NOTHING to help pilots who were pushed around at Torrey. You say he has "POSITIVE RELATIONSHIPS", but it's very easy to have positive relationships when you just smile at everyone and don't step up to the hard problems at hand. David Beardslee is no saint, but he was kicked out of Torrey for life without any justification and without any due process. That's abuse, and as an SDHGPA Board Member, Helliwell should have at least demanded that Beardslee be given a reason. But it was more important for Bill to be "liked" than to stand up and fight for what's fair. So guess what? He was well liked and things remained unfair. Is that your solution? Go along to get along?

Kent wrote: "... we can start anew, clean slate and build a consensus now"

Those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it. We need to establish fair pilot oversight at Torrey just like we have here with the CSS. Bill won't support that, and that's why I haven't resigned. If I really thought he believed in the principles of fairness to pilots and fair representation for pilots, I'd have resigned before one ballot was mailed. But I asked Bill 4 very reasonable questions, and he's either dodged them or given the wrong answer. I'm sorry, but that's not the way to start anew.

Kent wrote: "Anybody who promises NOT TO bring a law suit, will forever have my vote."

That's not a well thought-out position. If USHPA were to ban Kent Erickson from all sites for all times you might see the error in your statement. People call it the "legal system", but it's really a "justice system". As much as we dislike lawyers and courts, they are there so that we all have a place to fall back on when local bullies have gotten out of control. Sure, we should try to work out our differences among ourselves. But when the standards of "justice" at Torrey (and even USHPA) are failing us, that's when we need to appeal to higher authorities. That's why they're there. It's not my first choice, but I would never take it off the table. Bill was foolish to make such a statement, and I'm glad Stephen caught it.

Kent wrote: "...others are happy flying. We just want to fly and have fun doing it, others demand Control."

How long had you been flying at Torrey? Did you know anything about what went on there? You really demonstrate your lack of historical background when you imply that I am demanding "Control" and forget about how Jebb treated people at Torrey. Jebb wanted control.

But more importantly, who is demanding "Control" here? I'm just 1 of 3 Directors in Region 3, and I'm only 1 of twenty-some Directors at USHPA. Who is demanding "Control" by working to have me removed? Can't the pilots who voted for me have even ONE Director who supports their views? Are you so intolerant that you won't even give them that?

Kent wrote: "We want to unify and not divide..."

Who's "we"? I don't know of a single flying site where HG and PG pilots are more unified than at Crestline. Rob McKenzie and the entire CSS work to ensure that both sports are treated fairly. That's NOT what happened at Torrey. Do you understand that or not?

Kent wrote: "... we at Torrey agree. We like are site, and we like others's sites."

The "we at Torrey" phrase tells the story (now I see who the "we" are).

I don't know you Kent, but it's clear that you see yourself as part of the "in crowd" at Torrey, and that's the heart of this whole problem. David Jebb (and now Robin) have cultivated a kind of "in crowd" / "out crowd" mentality. I've heard it many times in the language used. They used that kind of terminology to create an almost gang-like loyalty. So when I came along and asked for simple things like fairness and due process, Jebb turned that gang against me. It's been ugly ever since.

Like I said Kent, I don't really know you. But your pleas for "unity" are misdirected at me. You should have been directing them at David Jebb for 10 years or start directing them at Robin Marien and Brad Hall right now. That crowd has wanted to hold all the marbles. You know that Brad Hall (R3 RD) supported David Jebb. You also know that Rob Sporrer (R3 RD) has supported Brad Hall and opposed me. Why is it so important that they control 100% of the Region 3 Directors? Why can't the people who supported my platform have even one Director who shares their beliefs? You talk about those who "demand Control"!! Come on Kent, that's what this recall is about. They don't want 66% of the pie. They want the whole pie. They want absolute Control. They don't want discussion with opposing views. They want everyone to just nod their heads - go along to get along. If that's what you want, then I believe you're backing the right horse.

By the way, can anyone quote Bill's answers to the 4 questions I asked him back in January? Kent, you seem to be supporting Bill, so maybe you could help us out here. Thanks.

Shameful…..
It seems like a terrible waste of USHPA funds to have this recall.
I see Bob trying his best to improve things in Region 3 for Instructors and Pilots by promoting transparency and fairness.
I see him do this as a volunteer, without any commercial interest.
I can understand why Bob might meet some fierce opposition.
An election recall is not appropriate here and now…a regular election will be appropriate next fall. I think Bob has earned the position to represent our region for his full term. Who knows, maybe Bob AND Bill can work together as Co-Directors in the future.

Why are some of my posts vanishing? Yet one of my posts, is disected and repeated, item by item, by BobK ??

Who is doing that? Another gentleman's post has been deleted as well. Does this always happen here, like it does on Hanggliding.org ? The Oz Report, which I think BobK was banned from, is the only one where nobody is screwing around with people's posts. Is the site ADM doing this? I responded to a post today, from a BobK supporter calling Torrey Pines, Robin and I think myself names etc etc etc. Now that post is GONE, and my response is GONE, yet BobK's post to me is posted LINE by LINE.
Talk about Shameful, unfair and childish BS. Bob are you going to comment on THAT? the very thing you were talking about JUST HAPPENED today.
Bob, seriously your paranoia keeps you from looking at the fact that for whatever reason, you dont seem to be able to get along with people. For example, IM NOT RUNNING FOR RE ELECTION, but yet you mention MY NAME 17 times in ONE post? I disagree with YOU, and when somebody does that, YOU GO AFTER them, line by line. I gave my opinion, I dont do that so you can attack me, claim I think that, or this or whatever. You READ INTO things and see and hear things that are NOT there..(gang like)...which is consistent with paranoia. I DONT HATE YOU BOB. WE are NOT in agreement. There is plenty of room in that sentence to include flying, discussion, fun and NOTHING ABOUT HATE.
I don't know Jebb, or Hall or the last 10 years of history you keep talking about constantly. There is nothing to be said about that from my end. There is just a consistent antagonistic approach that you choose every interaction I've seen with others as well as myself. Your motives are not trusted, you are not a bridge builder apparently.
I'm a single father of 3 kids, very involved with my church and have a passion for flying and sharing flying with others. Your claim of the "in crowd" and you being accused of being the devil is once again, FALSE. IM TOO BUSY AND I DO NOT have time for all of that, you are not that important to me ok? Being a newbie there and a HANG pilot...Torrey welcomed me just as other places did. Now that Robin has given me the Events and Promotions resposibility, I'm especially sensitive to promoting this sport, Torrey Pines and ESPECIALLY other pilots, AS IS ROBIN.

I speak for me and only me, my opinion means nothing, to you or anybody and that's 100% fine, but I stand by what I said, and if anybody wants to talk with me about it here is my number Kent Erickson 858-945-3690. Promotion of our sport, getting others involved and having fun doing it is VERY important to me, to Torrey and to Robin and EVERYBODY else I know there ok? I'm not running for any office.
Several hundred people asked for a recall vote action and got it. You have a great deal of support in some places, well earned I might add, and you do not have support other places, well earned there as well.
This is the only site where I've read about ANOTHER SITE, being called names, put down, made fun of and called to ignore etc etc. Everybody I know loves flying other sites as well as Torrey. Never heard a negative word about other sites LET ALONE calls to avoid and ignore like I have HERE. Anybody find that at least interesting? We want to promote Torrey, have fun flying together and building a greater flying community, especially as we stand against many of the proposed laws, rules, power systems, city BS etc etc that might keep us from flying.
In the future look for more invitations and joint flying activities from Torrey Pines Gliderport.

Look what these politics do.

At what point are we going to have to get a boom box playing an upbeat classic and march a slime covered statue of liberty through this thread?

I know why I am cranky. Dec. 9. Last time I flew. Grr.....

Dear folks of San Diego with rump sores professing Bob as the host carrier.

Thanks for the opportunity to affirm my support for Bob. You'll be pleased to know that the Centers for Disease Control have found no link between the sores on your rumps and Bob K, the cause is more likely "Localized" within your group. I understand that increasing your weekly flight time may significantly lead to the healing of your sore rumps. Of course, as always, consult your family physician or flight surgeon, whichever tickles your fancy. (Even a good bar tender!)

For your troubles, I have voted NO on the Recall. In the event of Recall of Bob K, I have voted for Bob K to replace Bob K. Cool huh?

I have enjoyed the chance to support Bob, after all, a part of that $10,000.00 recall bill was paid for by me too. *shrug* I can think of better ways to spend 10k, but what do I know? I'm just a dumb ol' Mountain Man.

As far as Bill H, I don't know you, I'm sure you're a great guy, but still, I don't know you. Sorry, nothing personal.

San Diego, best wishes in the alleviation from the discomfort of your rump sores.

Some advice? Go fly your wings! Seriously, you'll feel better. More time in the air, less time to despair, you don't even have to use your sore rump to pilot your wing, well, maybe just a little. It's the best time you can have with your clothes on, although you could fly sans the clothes, but, I don't recommend it. Your choice though, just like this stupid recall. "End" your rump sores today!

Please note, I am not a Rumpsoreologist, nor have I played one on TV, I'm not fond of staying at the holiday Inn, so, I can't adequately diagnose your sore rump.

Ok I have no idea what happened to them but I"ll assume it was my mistake somehow. Maybe I didnt' hit "enter" when I was done or something. Not sure but I appreciate the efforts to find out, no big deal no harm no foul by bad.

I find myself wishing you Mike B could maybe see all the responses from Bob as I'm shocked it you could call his accusations and assumptions "polite" no way but I don't really care honestly.

Oceans apart in perceptions I can tell you that...We have a blast at Torrey and if you fly there, it's very apparant and our advice is always, and perhaps to a fault that's been pointed out to me, "shut up and fly". To me flying "covers a multitude of sins"
As for the Rump Sores issues, I really appreciate the help and concern and will keep that in mind. I had a really good response and it had a lot to do with Blacks Beach etc etc etc, but given all the recent sensitivity and a few individual's willingness to bring in the presence of a judge, I think it's best for me to OPT NOT to respond. But it would have been almost as funny I'm sure.
For us, we DO KNOW and have a lot of experience with the people involved, thus an easy decision on the recall vote. This one vote were hoping the "sore" heals and vanishes.
Dennis that is PERFECT advice. I'm thrilled we have at least that in common. In fact that same advice has been trumpeted almost daily and is the overwhelming "group think" for the Reg 3 San Diego metro area certainly.

Seriously I hope you guys can make it down next week/wknd. Pretty cool chance to meet Erik Linbergh and hear his announcement! Also I know many of you have some ideas for some joint mkt and promotions etc and I'd like to hear them.

The recall is a waste of time and $10K that could have gone for something useful. The folks wanting to oust Bob could have waited for the next election.

I call on others to punish these people for being wasteful. Vote No.

So far as the candidates go, Bill apparently is liked by some because he doesn't ruffle any feathers. That's the last reason to vote for someone, unless of course you like things exactly as they have been.

For me, the final clincher is Bill's refusal to answer the four questions, which may actually be an answer in itself, although definitely inadequate.

I've been notified by email that Bob has some characteristics that some may not like. Even if true, they do not in themselves disqualify him from holding this office.

What does qualify him is his willingness to ruffle a few feathers in the interest of justice. He stands for something.

If you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything. That disqualifies Bill.

Steve Corbin

Hang Gliding is inherently fun

Kent, maybe you didn't understand. When someone deletes his post, the replies are also deleted. Of course you hit "enter" and we saw your replies. When Marcus deleted his post, your reply disappeared.

And regarding Bob's reply to you, I was only talking about the one reply you seemed to claim was an attack. Of course when you bring all the feelings of past injustice or "Bob has got on my bad side" you will color everything Bob says with that, right off the bat.

You didn't answer my question about a loyal H3 possibly not being allowed to fly Torrey? I think you should be allowed to fly there once you know the site.

Mike,

I get along with people, I truly enjoy people and making friends and easily finding common ground with others from all walks of live, colors and creeds. Thats ME. The recall candidate has a histoy that is just the opposite for whatever reason. Having said that, paranoid is word never used to decribe me or my behavior, and many other adjectives used to describe him. So, yes based on the interactions on emails, it's simply my opinion that he does attack, go after, antagonize, pursue, study minutia that begins a deep and spiraling cascade of relentless questions and assumptions and interpretations and "cross examinations' that seemingly seek to only conquer, expell and silence rather than point out the simple point and build an agreement to unify and agree EVER. I believe strongly in that and you I"m sure disagree just as strongly. So, it's pointless to discuss THIS point as it's a reflective "crux" of the matter....understand? Simply put, let's agree to disagree on that one.
As for the H3, (forgot) Im ready to test for the H4 soon but as of yet, Im still trying to get closer to the P4, needing more mountain time and very much wanting to get my tandem certification sometime in 2011.
Years ago the Hangs determined the Torrey Site is a H4 site and until that changes the H3's have to get their H4's in order to fly there. Looks to me like many days it's a H3 site when it's strong and a bit technical on lighter days and/or cross upping it to a H4 site.

http://www.iespell.com/

;-)